Neil Dudley: The Cowboy Perspective, well, it might be hard to define, but I guarantee if you think about it, you’ve got one in mind. Whether you’re building a legacy, an empire, or a fan base, I bet when your friends look at you, they see some cowboy in your face. Y’all come along, let’s talk about this or that. Maybe when we’re done, you’ll go away with another perspective to put under your hat.
Well, if you’re new and if you’re not, thanks for listening to the Cowboy Perspective. I wonder, have you ever worked in a family business? Do you own a family business? Do you ever watch family businesses from afar? Well, today’s guest is doing what seems to be really hard to do and that is build a successful family business that has a succession plan. Is that word right? Succession? Well, anyways, it just means he’s passing it on to his kids and they seem to be doing a really good job of it. I think it’s really valuable to everybody to get a perspective. The family’s name is Volleman. The patriarch and matriarch are Frank and Annette Volleman. And today I talk to Frank, hope you find value in our conversation. If you do, please share it. Subscribe to the podcast. Go check out Volleman’s website, learn a little bit about their operation and their milk. I am excited to share it with you, and I hope you enjoy it. Let’s do this.
Okay, well, Frank, thank you so much for having me. Everybody, I guess I should introduce the man before I just start talking, but for all you awesome listeners, I thank you for listening to the Cowboy Perspective. I’m getting the great pleasure to sit at a house owned by Frank and Annette Volleman and their family. And we’re going to talk a little bit about the business he’s in, what he sees and knows about success and failure and all those things. I mean, what I try to do with the Cowboy Perspective podcast is give people a chance to hear from people I see in my life that I think, wow, I want to pick up some of the things they do and use it in my business or in my family or in my thought process on about anything. Frank why don’t you, if you don’t mind, tell everybody just real quickly who- And if you notice a little accent in this guy, he’s not necessarily from Texas, although you might say you are now. Tell them who you are, Frank. Thanks for having me.
Frank Volleman: Hey, Neil, a real pleasure to be on your podcast, and always been a great listener myself to your podcast. Very interesting topics you always pick up. It’s a real honor to be on this podcast. My name is Frank Volleman. So together with my wife and with the boys now we run Wildcat Dairy here in Gustine, and most recently, we started bottling our own milk under the Volleman brand name. So, we’re having a lot of fun with that. So just to tell you a little bit who we are and where we come from, you can hear my accent, there’s a little accent there, originally our family came from Holland, the Southern part of Holland on the Belgium border. And my parents immigrated to Luxembourg in the early sixties. So that’s where I was born, that’s where I was raised, went to school there, and then married my wife. And we were in the dairy business for about, oh, I would say six years in Luxembourg on our own. Benjamin and David, the two oldest ones, were born in Luxembourg, and we realized pretty quick, if we wanted them to have a chance to be in this awesome business, we had to do something. Space is very limited in Luxembourg. And it’s certainly, it’s a beautiful country and it’s more geared towards tourism, banking industry, things like that, but certainly not a whole lot of space for ag. And so, we decided to look around. We looked around in different countries and we settled for Texas. So, no, I wasn’t born in Texas, but as the saying goes, I got here as quick as I could.
Neil Dudley: That’s right. I love that saying. Being born a Texan, I was telling somebody just the other day, in my mind, Texas is the best country in the world. People just, Texans seem to think it’s its own country, and I fall prey to that thought process a lot. That’s a great, I think, perspective for everybody to know. You’re a bit of an adventurer, just to make that- your wife, your family is just- I’ve never had even the thought to go anywhere else. Maybe it’s just because America does provide quite a bit of opportunity. And I’ve always been in agriculture and that’s where I was raised. And we just happened to be in a place where it wasn’t a problem to think you had room to grow and the ability to do more if you want it to. So, this Volleman’s milk brand is a really awesome thing in my mind. It’s like it takes a lot of gumption to jump off and do that, especially when you’re already running a successful dairy. And you guys kind of aren’t scared to always be what I call leaning forward. You’re like, you’re just always not accepting this is the best we can do. What can we do more of? So, for the people that might be interested in drinking Volleman’s milk, where can they find it today or right now? I know we can get around locally here in Comanche, in different places. I saw somewhere that I think you can get it in the market streets up in the metroplex, Dallas-Fort Worth that is for anybody that might not know what the metroplex is. And is that it, or where else?
Frank Volleman: Hey, just the easiest way, I could ramble off a whole list of stores, but the easiest way is to go on Vollemansdairy.com on our website. It has an interactive map, and you zoom in and all the stores pop up – from the Metroplex, like you said, all the way down to Huston, Central Market, Market Street, United.
Neil Dudley: I might say, give everybody the spelling too. I mean, I’ll put all this stuff in the show notes, we’ll set up links too. Anybody listening to the podcast, if you’re interested in Volleman’s milk and their family, they also do some stuff on social media. Is it a YouTube channel or is it Instagram? I can’t think of where I’ve seen you and the boys and Annette talking.
Frank Volleman: So that’s on- sorry to interrupt. That’s on Facebook. So, we have a little podcast there as well.
Neil Dudley: I think it’s a good idea to go check that out if you’re interested in knowing exactly where your milk comes from, if you buy Volleman’s, you can know really a lot about the people that are producing this milk and doing the work that it takes to make great milk. Tell me a little bit about distribution. How are you getting milk from- or is your plant finished? I mean, all of it, there’s a lot to this process that people may not understand. So, let’s paint that picture for them a little bit. Oh, and I must interject – in Comanche on the square, there’s a soda shop, and if you’re in town, you got to go get the Frank’s Famous Strawberry Milkshake because it’s awesome. That’s just a shameless plug for the soda shop. The soda shop does a lot of great things for the community. They have different groups from around town to come work the soda shop, and then they donate some of that money back to them. So, if you’re traveling through or you live in Comanche or surrounding area, go see the soda shop and have a Frank’s strawberry milkshake. Oh, where were we? Shucks.
Frank Volleman: We were on the distribution. So probably one of the most challenging items on our list as we develop this brand. Several stores come and pickup their milk. And other chains say, no, we want you to do DSD, so direct store delivery. And that is quite challenging. It takes a whole fleet of trucks. It takes a good team of drivers that can deliver the product on time and to the right places. And we’re building that team as we speak.
Neil Dudley: Now, have you had to get up at two in the morning and jump on the delivery truck yet?
Frank Volleman: Whatever needs to be done, we’re all standing behind the brand name.
Neil Dudley: I’ve been there when we were first doing Peterson’s. That distribution piece is really a tough one to solve when you’re getting started, because you don’t have the volume yet to kind of get the distributors interested, but you can’t get that volume without doing some DSD. So, it’s a big barrier so as you have to solve. And we’d have drivers that we’d just call, the truck needs to leave at two in the morning because you need to make these deliveries early in the morning at the retailers.
Frank Volleman: And then these trucks are refrigerated trucks. So that’s an additional, I don’t want to say headache, but it’s just an additional thing that you continuously have to monitor. We keep our milk at 35 to 40 degrees Fahrenheit. So, you just need to be continuously aware that there’s a cooling unit going on in that truck that, first of all, it needs to be fueled up.
Neil Dudley: I’m guessing you’ve had some issues there?
Frank Volleman: We had some technical issues. If you have equipment, you’re going to have technical issues. So, but I mean, all the problems are there to be solved. So, we’re not afraid of that.
Neil Dudley: I love painting the picture a little bit of some of the trials that dairymen, farmers, ranchers, manufacturers of food go through that a lot of people don’t know about. They just go to the grocery store and there’s good quality, healthy, safe food to eat there, and they don’t understand necessarily what it takes to do it. And that refrigeration, as you’re driving down the road is a big thing. I mean, it happened to us. It can still happen to us. The truck driver lets it go into defrost for three hours or something. The temperature spikes up above 45 or whatever your upper limit is that you have set. And that product gets to the warehouse, and they look at the temp recorder, and the temperature of the product is warm. Guess what? That’s a lot of work and money. What do you do with? So, there’s just a lot to it. And I mean, that could almost be a podcast in itself – distribution trials and tribulations and success. Those people that really figure that out, it becomes an asset to them. Now, you’ve already got milk in stores, but I drive by your little – I say little plant – big plant, it doesn’t look operational. So how are you doing, how is the milk- how’s that working?
Frank Volleman: So right now, we have a co-packer that takes care of bottling the milk for us. So, we installed a glass bottling line at that at that plant. And we’re taking our milk down there, and then they bottle it for us based on our criteria and our formulations. And then, we’re bringing it back. Actually, we’re using the warehouse already out of our new plant. The cooler is up and running. And so, we’re using the cooler space to unload the trucks and then reload every morning to distribution trucks from that side. So, but we’re not, Neil, we’re not far away from it. We’re, I’m going to say tentatively, two to three weeks away from it, assuming that we’re passing all the inspections. I think we’re in very, very stringent health department controls and that’s all good and that’s okay. I think when somebody grabs a glass of milk, they need to be a hundred percent sure that this is the best quality you can buy on the shelf. And that’s why we go through all these rules and regulations. But there is certainly very, very stringent environmental and quality, you’re talking about bacteria, all that kind of testing needs to go on before the inspector will give us the green light to start producing out of our plant.
Neil Dudley: Well, just from a community member or a guy that lives in this part of the country, I appreciate you guys doing that and putting it here, because you could have put it about anywhere ultimately.
Frank Volleman: Yeah, we had some very interesting offers from some big cities that would be very strategically placed on main interstates, and from a distribution standpoint, would have been a lot more economical, but we worked very closely with was our county leaders, and we’re very gracious for the steps that they have done. And I think we decided to put it here in Gustine on Highway 36. And I think it turned out to be a beautiful place. The plant looks great, and we’re really looking forward to work with the community, staff the plant, and get going here the first part of December.
Neil Dudley: So, are you going to let people come in and tour the plant? Well, I got a million questions, so let’s deal with this one first. So that glass bottling equipment you put in, are you going to get that back, or do they get to keep that at the company? Did you put that in-?
Frank Volleman: Yeah, that’s our bottling line, and we may keep that bottling line not only as a backup, but we may do some production out of that plant as well and develop markets in that area. And so, we’re going to leave that topic open for now. There’s no rush or no hurry to close that down. That’s an operation, operating bottling plant. So, we’re good there. You were asking if we would let people look inside the plant. So, this will be a high care facility, and you’re in the food industry, you know what that means. So, the processing area itself will be closed to the public. We can’t have in a food plant where there’s a chance of bacteria entering your plant, listeria, we know all the history of what has happened to different plants here in the state. So, we certainly don’t want to take that chance. So, the buildings, the offices, storage room, and all that kind of stuff, we’ll probably do some kind of a tour. But we will not let people go into the production, on the production floor. We built some windows, some observation areas where people can come in and take a look, but they cannot walk through the processing area. And this is just because of bacteria being dragged in and food safety.
Neil Dudley: Yeah, food safety concerns. And you got to meet certain expectations. When you’re selling this to retailers, they’re going to expect you to meet certain criteria. So that’s all understandable to me, but I can imagine people driving by are going to be wondering, well, hey, I want to look. And I think out there, I don’t know if- I may just perceive this and it’s not true, but I feel like consumers think when you won’t let them in that you’re trying to hide something. And I just, this one little podcast won’t solve that problem, but it’s a chance for me to say it out loud to people – look, nobody’s trying to hide anything. And actually, we’re just trying to do the very best job possible. This is I’m speaking for Peterson’s, and I’m sure Frank would say the same thing. We’re not trying to hide what we do from you. It only makes sense to keep a certain level of protection when you’re dealing with food that you don’t know where it’s going to go or who’s going to drink it and you want them all to be safe.
Frank Volleman: So, I think just to elaborate a little bit on that topic, food safety and buyer security is very important not only in a food plant, but on our dairies as well. And I think we’re very, I think we pride ourselves to be very transparent. We have a Facebook page, we have Instagram, we show videos, we have the dairy dialogue going on. We try to educate as good as we can what we do on the dairy, how we handle animals, how we feed them, how we produce forages, same thing will happen at the plant, how we bottle the milk, what goes in it. And so, I think that’s, it’s a great part of what we do to be very transparent with our product.
Neil Dudley: It makes me think – and this part might not go on the podcast, but I want to hear what you think – there’s been some bad publicity out there on dairies in the recent years, somebody just mistreating the baby calves and all this kind of stuff. What is your take about that? Or do you carry around fear that somebody is going to try to sneak in and catch one of your employees doing the wrong thing? You can’t be everywhere all the time. What do you think about that?
Frank Volleman: Sure. I’m not- I mean, that is a concern. That’s a concern on every dairyman’s mind. All our employees, myself included, we go, and our boys make me do that, so we go through really stringent education processes, and that’s videos, that is other educational material that we have to follow and sign off that we saw and that we followed these videos, these protocols that we have in place on animal handling, animal abuse. We do watch these terrible videos that go out there and do not really depict the reality of these situations. And they can be very damaging to a brand or to a profession. But like I said, we’re training our employees as good as we can, and there is absolutely zero tolerance when it comes down to these cases of animal abuse.
Neil Dudley: I like to paint the picture that you do that, partly because you really care, but also because you’re a businessman and it’s smart business to know what you’re doing, to keep your animals well fed, healthy, all those things. That actually is very contingent on you being successful as a dairy. I perceive, I know it is for a cattleman or a horse- anybody that’s kind of raising animals and using agriculture for their- even fields. You got to be very nice to your fields, and that takes time and care. By the way, this Dos Equis is good. In case anybody hears me taking a drink once in a while, Frank was kind enough to loan me a Dos Equis. I want to broach or explore the idea of, to me, I admire this what I feel is spirit you guys have of leaning forward. You might call it risk-taking. Does that make any sense to you what I’m saying? Or if I call you a risk taker, would you accept that? Disagree with that? What would you think?
Frank Volleman: Yeah, calculated risk. I think it all started generations ago. When my parents moved from Holland to Luxembourg, that was 300 miles away. That’s equal to 5,000 miles today. Because they saw, once they left Holland, they saw their parents once a year, which is the same as what we’re doing right now. We’re trying to fly back to Europe at least once a year, if not twice. And that’s the same thing. So, they took a certain risk by moving to a different country, different language, the same risk that we took when we decided to come to Texas in 1993. We took that leap of faith. And yeah, there are some risks to it. I would say there’s a little risk to it, there’s a little adventure to it, a little bit of craziness to it. I think you put it all in one pot, and then you make a decision, and it takes the whole family. It takes your wife needs to be a hundred percent behind you. And we were in a very fortunate position when we decided to come to the United States that my youngest brother Marcel decided, hey, if you’re going Frank, I’m going with you. And that really teamed up, made really two strong hands on the dairy to get started. That was tremendously, tremendously helpful. Now, did we have difficult days? Absolutely. We had difficult days. We had very tough days.
Neil Dudley: What do you mean by that? Not getting along, not seeing eye to eye? Or just hard work?
Frank Volleman: No, it’s just different country, different language, different methods of doing business. And when you just start and you’re really green and wet behind your ears-
Neil Dudley: Did they have that term in Luxemburg?
Frank Volleman: Yeah, we got rolled over the barrels several times. There were moments where it was financially very, very challenging. Then Mother Nature is not always on your side – Neil, I guess you know all about that. It’s always too much of something. It’s too dry or too wet. It is too hot or tremendously cold. And even if it’s for one day, all your pipes freeze, that’s enough to shut your dairy down. So, we learned, we prepared to be better the following year, we educated ourselves, and I think we can manage it a little better now than we did 27 years ago when we came here. Now, I look at our cows, they’re very well taken care of. They’re in a climate-controlled building. They enjoy a lot of water cooling and fan cooling. And on the other hand, they’re very thankful for that. Heat abatement during the summer is great for them. And so that’s how you produce the highest quality milk. And again, that’s why we decided to put that high quality milk back in a glass bottle.
Neil Dudley: Oh yeah. That’s so, why did you go back to the glass bottle? That has to be more expensive.
Frank Volleman: It is certainly more expensive, but it is- I’m 56. The kids are running these projects. They’re between 23 and 30. It’s a young generation. They’re very environmentally conscientious. And they see that what we’re doing today with the whole plastic movement and whatnot that there were huge opportunities. And I think that’s one thing, we package our milk in glass bottles. These glass bottles are returnable. People pay a deposit, and they get their deposit back when they bring the bottle back. The bottle comes back to our plant, the bottle gets washed, rinsed, disinfected, sterilized. And we can use this bottle over and over 40 to 50 times. And then we have to recycle the bottle, not because the glass wears out, but because the print on the bottle, the label wears out. And then you can still recycle the glass. So that was one thing, the environmental picture of it. And then the other thing is I think we know for sure the taste of the milk stays what it is in a glass bottle versus plastic or your tetra packaging, your carton with a plastic film on the inside. It’s just not the same. And the response, the echo that we got back on social media and directly from people when they talk about taste, it’s just awesome. It is just this is what milk is supposed to taste like. And so, it’s the same thing, Neil, we’re having a beer here and I’m not offering this in a can or whatnot. I intentionally offered this in glass because we all like to enjoy beer in glass. And so same thing with milk. It just tastes better.
Neil Dudley: You bet. The taste better, which is everybody can appreciate, and then for those people that don’t care about the environment – which I would really like them to think about that again if they’re choosing not to, because this is our world, that’s going to be where our kids grow up and our grandkids and all those things, we should probably think about preserving it – that’s just an added benefit. Plastic gets out in the oceans and it’s just a big problem. And I appreciate that. At Peterson’s we think about that. We put a lot of bacon in plastic, and we’re just not, we’ve not found a better way to do it, but we’re looking for better ways to do it. And there are people out there coming up with good ways, the new idea there.
Frank Volleman: The sustainability in this whole endeavor of Volleman’s putting milk back in glass bottles I think was one of the was on the forefront of our main driver in doing this. And sustainability, not only in Volleman’s, but on our dairy as well as on the farm, the farming techniques that we’ve developed over time, and that we’re going to continue to develop – conservation tillage, continuously having your ground covered for wind erosion, water erosion. And there’s so many things that, as we go and as we learn, there’s a lot of stuff that can be done from that aspect. And here on the dairy, we’re actually working on another project. I’m not going to talk too much about it because it’s not finalized yet, but we’re working on another major project here at the dairy that will hopefully materialize, or at least we should be able to talk about it a little more in the next three to six months, that will really, really bring sustainability and an environmental aspect really to the forefront.
Neil Dudley: Cool. Well, you just make me want to try and get you to talk, but I’ll leave you alone about that one. But see, there you go again, you’re just doing this thing, like you’re kind of always working on something, and man, that’s I want to be that way. I think people should strive to be that way if they feel- I think maybe don’t be something you’re not just because Frank’s that way. I mean, I’m impressed by him. I think a lot of people are that I don’t even know, but you have a large reach. And then we should probably talk about Annette a little bit, like she’s pretty brilliant and a big part of what makes you guys successful. I feel bad sometimes because I know in my life, that partnership is the thing that Stacey and I just are able to do a lot of what we do because of our partnership. And I see that in you and Annette as well.
Frank Volleman: Yeah, they always say, Neil, behind a good man, there is an even better woman. And it certainly is the case for us. We would probably not be here today if it wasn’t for Annette, that really keeps everything together. She’s the patriarch of the family, trying to keep the kids around and taking care of the grandkids right now. Most of the day, she has three grandkids that are between six/seven months old and two years old. And let me tell you, that that’s a handful. She is still the CFO of the company. So, her signature is at the bottom of the checks or most of them. But I would certainly not forget the next generation that is out there. It’s the kids that are really driving all these new developments that, what you’re saying is what’s coming next. And they have a great education and they’re well spirited. And we’ve been very blessed with some awesome boys and their partners tremendously being involved in the business, and they are going to take this business to the next level.
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You mentioned your age a minute ago and that your kids are really very involved in a lot of what you’re doing. What gives you the ability to kind of – I don’t know if I should say this, but I’m going to – it feels like maybe you’re letting the reins go a little bit. You’re kind of thinking okay, I’m going, I want to play my role, but I want you guys and gals to be figuring where Volleman’s is going in the future, and I want to support that. I think a lot of people that build things, build businesses, they have a hard time letting that go a little bit. Was any of that on point, or do you understand, or does that make sense to you?
Frank Volleman: I see what you’re saying. I think, I mean, one of the reasons why we came to Texas and looked for opportunities is when Benjamin and David were born, and we said, if they ever want to be in this business, we got to do something. And then they can decide later on if they want to continue or not, but then at least they have the opportunity. And as the business grew, and we taught them all the values that you know as well as I do are very important in life, being raised on the farm which is a most fantastic place where you can raise kids. I guess you would agree, Neil.
Neil Dudley: Yeah, I certainly agree. I think you just can’t trade for that.
Frank Volleman: And so, as we saw the kids coming along, and first of all, we told them get a good education and that was number one, and they all succeeded and we’re very proud of that. And then we saw them taking on responsibilities. No, today I have absolutely no problem turning the reigns loose. And I see myself today more in a position of a coach, giving my opinion, this is how I would do it. Very, very seldom do we have issues where we are going to have to put- where I or Annette have to put our foot down and say, no, this is how it’s going to be. I think we’re way past that stage. And we look at the results and we’re very proud of the boys. And so, let them have it, let them run with it. I was 29 when I came to the United States, and I mean, the boys are 30, 31. And so they’re good at what they do. And we’re very proud of them and-
Neil Dudley: Who’s selling this milk everywhere? So, tell me, which boy has the sales? I don’t know, I can’t figure out what way to say, but who kind of likes that piece of the business?
Frank Volleman: Well, let me take a step back and let me just introduce the boys. First of all, I want to say that all the boys today are all partners in this business. So, they all have skin in the game.
Neil Dudley: Did you make them-? I’m interested, so did everybody have to buy in with some money that came up with somewhere? Did you give them, how did that work? I mean, when you say skin in the game-?
Frank Volleman: Sure, they have skin in the game, they own a certain portion of the assets of the operating entities. Yeah, there were some different financial transactions that had to be done. I don’t want to go too much into the really nitty gritty of it.
Neil Dudley: Sure. Yeah, but just the idea to get real skin in the game to me-
Frank Volleman: They, and I mean, some of them, like Benjamin, and I may miss a year or two, but has been 8, 9, 10 years in the business. It’s about time for him to have skin in the game. And so, they all own a portion of the business. Benjamin is the oldest one. He graduated from Tarleton and came home immediately and started working here on the dairy. And then later on found his place on the farm, and he takes care of a large acreage – that this is a grassland, this farming, this plowed field, this is grass, this is pretty much everything. There is a lot of irrigation going on. I mean, he has his hands full year-round. When one crop is off, he puts already the next one in the ground and provides for really high-quality feed for our herd. So that’s his job, his responsibility. And he works very closely with Mother Nature every day. Doesn’t have a whole lot of impact, but you have to work with what Mother Nature, the cards that you get dealt. So, and I think we’re- He’s been very successful and pretty proud of what he does every day. And he loves what he does.
Neil Dudley: Well, I’ll tell you right now, it’s easy to see that you’re proud of them, and that’s just as a parent man, that’s such a nice thing.
Frank Volleman: And then, David is the second one. He graduated from A&M. Whoop. Yeah, he’s an aggie, I have to say it. So, and then once he went there, all the other ones followed him. There’s something to the aggie spirit, but I guess that’s a different podcast for a different day.
Neil Dudley: That’s right. Well, I’ll tell you, Cody, which is my best friend since kindergarten and I work with him every day at Peterson’s, he’s a diehard aggie. He went there, I call it got brainwashed, but the truth is it’s a brotherhood and sisterhood, and that, it’s valuable. What A&M provides in education is one thing, but in the network, the way that school’s alumni supports other alumni, it’s special. It’s really good. So, I always kind of snarl a little bit just because I didn’t go there, but that’s not really a good reason to do that.
Frank Volleman: I think today we’re still, through the kids, we’re still tied very close to A&M and different programs that pop up continuously even now. And I may not have the terminology correctly, but A&M is working with Comanche County to develop more, some kind of a roadmap. And you may know more about that.
Neil Dudley: I’ve heard a little about it.
Frank Volleman: So, Anna is being involved in that from A&M; she was asked to be on that board. I don’t know if there’s still a pre-selection, I don’t know exactly where we’re standing on that. But she would be a great to serve on that board as well. But David is, again, that’s Anna’s husband, David is the second one, and he was always, from kindergarten on, from a young age, he was always passionate about the cows and the cattle. So, he found his place here at the dairy, and he manages the dairy. He manages a large heard, a lot of people, and the daily challenges that happen on an operation like that.
Neil Dudley: Yeah. It’s 24/7. For people that don’t know, dairy is 24/7, all day, every day.
Frank Volleman: 365 days a year. And that’s alright. That’s a choice you make in life. Sometimes it’s tough, there’s no doubt about it. On the other hand, sometimes it’s very rewarding as well. So, he takes care of producing the milk, getting the highest quality milk. And then Andrew, he’s the third one. Andrew and Daniel were the two boys that were actually born here in Texas. This is their home place. This is all they have known all their life. And so, Andrew, through college, got an education in dairy products, technology, ag systems management. So, he graduated from A&M as well. And then he went to Cal Poly in California and did his education there in dairy products technology. And he’s actually the one that has taken the lead when it comes down to Volleman’s and really developing this brand and really taken a dream that we always had, but you can only do so much, and you can have that dream and you can have a roadmap, but it really takes people. And if it’s family, then it’s really, it’s going twice as fast. And so, he really took that idea and together with his brother, they developed it and said, this is what we’re going to do. And so, we as parents are very proud of that. We’re standing a hundred percent behind it. We will do whatever it takes to support the boys in that. But he’s the driving force behind that, behind Volleman’s brand. And then there is the fourth brother. He’s the youngest one. He graduated last year in May, and I hope I’m not missing any here, so.
Neil Dudley: Right. Well, Daniel’s the one I’m most familiar with just because I caught him a little bit. I was around when he was in high school and playing sports and doing those things. So, I knew him a little bit. I mean, I know them all. I know Benji probably second best just from seeing him around.
Frank Volleman: Yeah. So, Daniel is still going through a testing phase. All the boys did go work somewhere else for a while. Andrew, who’s working for the bottling, he worked sometime for Coca Cola and got a great experience there. David did different internships in state and out of the country. And so, everybody did something, and right now, Andrew is at my brother’s place. That’s Sundance Dairy.
Neil Dudley: Now, did you mean Daniel?
Frank Volleman: Yeah, sorry.
Neil Dudley: Okay, cool. No problem. I’m just keeping, I’m keeping all these names straight for you.
Frank Volleman: Thanks for correcting me there. So yeah, he’s at my brother’s place right now. He’s taking care of all the young heifer stock, and my brother has a pretty large dairy as well. So, Daniel is-
Neil Dudley: Dude, I feel your pain because I’ll sit there and try to talk to one of my daughters and I call her all three names, and they just kind of stare at me until I get to the right name.
Frank Volleman: He’s at that at that place right now, really enjoys it, loves it, and thrives on that place. So, there’s a good chance that he may just stay there at my brother’s place. My brother is not married, does not have any kids, so there could be some other opportunities there for us to team up and do something together. The future will tell what will, how that’s going to go.
Neil Dudley: -explore all those opportunities. I love this conversation. I mean, it’s kind of like a, it’s almost a family history, but it paints I think in a bigger picture what building a brand and a family entails. And for all of you people that may be listening – and I say all, the three – the three listeners of the Cowboy Perspective, when you see somebody, you can talk to them a little bit about what you heard here.
Frank Volleman: I can tell you there’s a few more than three.
Neil Dudley: I enjoy this. Like I think for me, the podcast, it’s kind of a side project, a side effect of giving me a good excuse to sit down and talk to people that I think are really cool and interesting and have done things. And it just is almost impossible for this conversation not to be valuable to somebody else that’s doing the same thing. Maybe they’re not trying to build a family dairy. Maybe they’re trying to build a software company and it happens to be brothers and sisters that have that vision. So anyways, I think it plays in a lot of ways to parallel what other people are going through and give them some insight into how you guys did it. Kind of the last thing maybe I’d like to explore is, I’ve experienced this, you are giving, you’re community minded. Tell me a little bit, why is that? Or not everybody’s that way, why are you that way?
Frank Volleman: Well, I think we all have a social role to play for the short time that we’re here. And part of that social role is, first of all, giving back to your community, because your community is great to you. It’s important to your business, it’s important to your environment, and it’s your community that makes you thrive. And so, it’s not more than logic to be involved in your community, be on different boards. And it doesn’t matter which board, but you have to be involved in your community and because you need your community. And that becomes very, very important. And the boys are engaged, everyone is engaging in something as they find time and find their niche where they need to be involved, if it’s in church or different organizations, the Knights of Columbus, even if it’s in the Water Board, or I was involved in the School Board for several years. I mean, there’s a whole list of places where you really can give back your time, your resources, your knowledge, give back to your community. And we think it’s very, very important.
Neil Dudley: But why do you think, where did that come from? It didn’t just- it just didn’t poof up out of the air that, oh, now you know that’s important. Did you see it in-? Well, see, now I like this- a lot of times I say so, did you see it in your parents, or did you have, like, who was your mentor? Who kind of- I believe, I know in my life, people have guided me all the way. Do you have an example of that? Like moving away from your parents, it might’ve been hard for, I guess though you were 29 when you left so you might have had a lot of education, a lot of you comes from them, do you think, or not so much?
Frank Volleman: My parents were not involved in any organization whatsoever. They worked really hard. Early morning to late at night, they were busy on the farm because they had no help. It was mom and dad. And we were all in school or married and off. So, there was not much free time that they had. They had a dairy, they had that farm, and they did it all themselves. And so, they were very, very busy. And I don’t know if that’s an excuse, but no, they were not as involved in the community as we tried to be. Now, are we that involved? I wish we could be even more involved and give back more to our community. Is there a certain mentor that I looked to and said, you know what, I wish I could be like that person that gives back? I mean, there’s so many people that are giving back in your community, people that are on school boards. I mean, Neil, you, I guess you’re still on the school board. I don’t have to look very far. I look at you and you have a young family and when you come home from work, you want to sit down and relax, ope, school board, here we go. And so, that takes a lot of courage. It takes time, understanding from your family, hey, our community’s important because it will come back to us, to your family, to your kids. And so, I think there is a call for that responsibility that we all have.
Neil Dudley: Is that some faith that plays into that?
Frank Volleman: Yeah, absolutely.
Neil Dudley: Yeah. For me, I think I’m held by God to a standard of loving people and showing them that love. So that’s a part of it.
Frank Volleman: So, I’m proud that the boys take on responsibility. And as they settle in and as they establish their family, and as the business develops, they will find their places to serve on more and more boards. And like, David, he’s very busy, very active. He’s the president of the TAD board, and I may miss a few more boards. Daniel is very active in the Knights of Columbus, which is a Catholic man’s organization. I know that Andrew is a young little child and working very intensively on Volleman’s brands, so doesn’t have much time right now, but I can see as they move back from Waco to Comanche to Gustine here that I’m a hundred percent convinced that he will find time to assume his social responsibility in this community.
Neil Dudley: Life is such a beautiful thing. There’s so many pieces of it. Work – work just gets to be a real, are you doing something you love? I think you found something you and your family love. So that’s such a blessing. I would encourage anybody that’s out there not doing something they love to take the risk and do something different. It’s just not worth it in my mind. I’m so blessed. I get to do what I love, and I like to talk, and I like selling, I love, I want to call it a game, the game of selling, I mean, sales are required to build and go and do something different.
Frank Volleman: Maybe, Neil, I need to hire you as our salesman for Volleman’s.
Neil Dudley: I could really get behind your brand. And that’s one thing that I guess I have to have is if I’m going to sell it, which for a lot of people, sales is tough because they don’t- I just picture it as what I have is very likely valuable to you and you’re going to enjoy it. I have no problem telling you about it. Where I think a lot of times, sales gets pictured as this kind of used car salesman that’s got a clunker that they’ve painted pretty, and they’re trying to get you to pay more than you should for it. That’s not what I’m talking about. What I’m talking about is having something you believe in and just getting the word out and giving people the opportunity to understand.
Frank Volleman: And nobody does that better than a family member itself that can go out, knows the brand, knows the product, works to make this product every day from the moment that baby calf is born until that milk is in the tank and finally ends up in a glass bottle. By the way, Daniel one day a week, assumes that role, besides working on the dairy at Marcel’s place. And one day a week, he goes out and talks to customers, and he says it’s very rewarding. Most of the people have heard of the brand. The idea of the returnable glass bottle is just, it’s really-
Neil Dudley: Well, how does that work in the big retailers? How does that bottle return work?
Frank Volleman: First of all, it’s tremendously accepted by the consumer. So, you go in a store, and you pick your half gallon, your quart. Pretty soon, we’ll come out with some short pints and some tall pints, so there will be different sizes available. People buy that and then they pay a deposit for this bottle. Whenever they return, next time when you go to the store, you take that bottle back and you get that refund on that bottle.
Neil Dudley: And those retailers don’t push back on that?
Frank Volleman: No, they love it.
Neil Dudley: Their processes work just fine? Wow. Well, see, that’s cool.
Frank Volleman: Because it’s driven by the next generation. When I say the next generation, it’s driven by the young generation. So, the older generation loves to buy it because that’s what it used to be. So, there’s some nostalgia there. The younger generation looks at it from a sustainability standpoint, and wherever they can have an impact, they will do it. And the retailer sees that. The retailers that have embraced it, they say, wow, we knew it was successful, but we didn’t know it was this successful. So, like I said, the young generation really embraces it, been very successful. Logistically, it’s very simple. When you make a delivery to the store, you just pick up the empties. I mean, it’s that simple. And there’s a lot of people that love the bottle. They use it as decoration as vases. Some people have used it as an aquarium. We’ve seen it all. And it’s really fun to see on social media when people post these things. I mean, we get a kick out of it.
Neil Dudley: Yeah, you bet. Well, that’s not- all of those things are so great. I’ve loved this conversation. I appreciate you taking the time. It wasn’t the easiest journey to this podcast, of course, but that’s okay. I mean, that’s just life, it’s reality. I mean, I think people try to get ahold of me sometimes and they feel like I’m ignoring them or don’t want to talk to them, and it’s not that, it’s lots of stuff going on.
Okay, everybody, I just had to turn the mics back on because Frank got to talking and he’s telling some really valuable insights into how they’ve operated and about going and getting executive training, and what I’m taking from it is he’s helping me, giving me some ideas about things that I could do to be better. And I just want to share it with you all. So, we turned the mics back on. Okay so, tell us what’s that acronym again that you were saying?
Frank Volleman: So, let me just back up, Neil. So, we turned the microphone back on because we got to talking about succession and how we got to a point where we are, and we’re still certainly not where we are going to be five years from now, but succession isn’t a step-by-step roadmap that, it’s just not a thing that’s done-
Neil Dudley: It’s not plug and play. You’ve got to build it.
Frank Volleman: It’s not plug and play, and every farm and every operation is different. So, we started years ago, and we started talking about the program TEPAP. So, it stands for the Executive Program for Agriculture Producers. And it kind of, it’s an educational program where for about a week, you kind of lock yourself – you are in a nice place. I mean, you pick a really nice resort, and you lock yourself in, and it’s an investment in yourself and in your business for about a week where professors, business professors, educational people, people out of the business world, the finance world, sales world, come and talk in sessions of one to two hours for about, like I said, for about a week. And you meet the executive people from large companies, ag companies, John Deere, just to pick a few names, and you just take all these programs, and you work through them and you kind of get a view of your operation, like I said, from about 10,000 feet of altitude, and you take topics apart that you didn’t even think existed.
Neil Dudley: Oh yeah. Well, I loved the way you put it before we got the mics on us. It’s like I’m looking at my business instead of thinking, oh, how am I going to fix this water line? Which is true, which is a thing that happens every day on the dairy. You got to find a way to get away from that enough where you can, I’ve heard it put this way as well, work on your business, not work in your business.
Frank Volleman: So, and that got us in contact with a lot of very intelligent people, people that do this for a living. So, when we started talking about succession and when we saw that the boys really had an interest in coming back to the farm, on how do we approach this? Especially if you have four boys, and all four showed an interest in coming back to the business. So, we knew we had to take this to a different level, and we hired a family mediator. Most of the time, families hire mediators when things go really bad and they don’t talk to each other, and these things do happen. And we know that, but we thought, we have a great family, we have a great understanding, and to keep it that way, why don’t we hire a family mediator before these things happen and let him guide us on how to start, first of all, start a discussion on succession, and then, start having ideas. And then you develop these ideas and you put them on paper. And then, once you got that all hammered out, that’s where your CPA comes in, and then you need a lawyer to put it all on paper. So that’s kind of the roadmap that we decided to go. It’s a two-year program, to back up, TEPAP is a two-year program, in January, you pick a weekend. I mean, it’s a great organization and a large organization. There’s thousands of members. So, they do that every year, a week in January, and then you meet there, and it’s, like I said, it’s a two-year program. I went the first year and I was so excited about this program, and it taught me so much that I told Annette that you got to go. And she looked at me and said, “That’s not for me.” And I said, “Baby, you got to go. I’ll be in the second year. You’ll be in the first year.” And then she enjoyed it too. She is the bookkeeper, she’s a CFA, CFO, and she really enjoyed it. Now there’s things of micro- and macro-politics and macroeconomics that may or may not interest you. They do interest me, but everybody finds their little niche in these programs.
Neil Dudley: And it feeds you a little bit of a thing you might not be thinking about that you might not have much interest in, but it’s still going to be affecting your business, it’s worth knowing it’s out there.
Frank Volleman: You bet. So, I graduated after second year, and when she went to the second year, I just didn’t want to stay at home. I was overwhelmed by that program, I loved it. And I called in and said, hey, do you have something for a third year? Can I come back and pay for the program and just pick the courses in the first and the second year? And they let me do that. So, I actually had three years of TEPAP. And then every year, the graduates of TEPAP, they meet again, and it’s called AAPEX. So, these are the graduates from the program. And this year they will meet. Every year they meet in another state. They sometimes go out of state because it’s in the winter and they go to the Caribbean, or they go somewhere else where it’s warm. And this year, we have the pleasure to have it here actually in Fort Worth. So, they’re still debating if they’re going to do it because of COVID, but hopefully it will go through. We try to make it not every year, but-
Neil Dudley: So, the network there, isn’t that so valuable, just the people you meet?
Frank Volleman: People from every corner of the United States have gone through this program. You can go on a tour, and you land in Washington State, and you want to go see a winery or you want to go see- you take your book with you and you say, okay, who was part of TEPAP? And you call them up and say, hey, I was in that year, can I come by? Oh, you’re a TEPAP graduate, come on in. And it creates another network. And you bounce off ideas of these people. A lot of them have brilliant minds. They have developed a great ag business. This is ag, so this is specifically ag. And you bounce off ideas with them. You go look at what they do. And that’s how we learn. So, a great program, something to be recommended to a lot of people.
Neil Dudley: So, check it out. We’ll put it in the show notes, TEPAP. Well, you mentioned Kolbe or was that right? The personality test or I’m not sure that even explains it good enough. And I mentioned we talked about it a little on a previous podcast. I’ve took the test. Stacey and I are working through some financial planning and that kind of stuff. So, it was worth finding out what our personalities are like, which are pretty different. But I think that’s great. Like a partnership of two very good, valuable, but different perspectives, and generally, that means you can come up with something. We might have to butt heads a little bit, but I don’t mind that.
Frank Volleman: So, that family mediator brought that test in, the Kolbe test. So, we did it among our family members, and we got a kick out of it. No doubt about it, we had some laughs. But it really depicts everybody’s personality pretty close. So, mine was a little risk taker, no doubt about it. So, I take a lot of risk. I always say it’s calculated risk, but Kolbe doesn’t understand calculated. I was a little risk taker, and Annette is very conservative. So, the opposite pretty much. And I think that’s why we always strike a really nice balance between the both of us. So, same with you and Stacey, it’s opposite. And that’s why it works really well because you find a right balance there. If you have two very conservative people, you’ll probably have a hard time getting anywhere. And if you have some risk takers on both sides, then-
Neil Dudley: You might just go off the cliff. I think what I remember from that was in my personality, I like to know a little bit about it – does it sound like a good idea? Does it feel like a good idea? Let’s do it. Where Stacey’s personality is more like, okay, I’m kind of on board with all that, but now tell me how I’m not going to lose everything. But where I’m kind of like, nah, you know what? If it sounds good, I bet it is. So that’s just, I think you and I may be a lot alike in that regard. I probably think I take- I don’t even try to qualify my risk as a calculated. I’m just give me the risk. I always think risk is reward. Like if you’re not risking, if it’s a guaranteed bet, it’s just not going to be very much gravy.
Frank Volleman: The reason why I say calculated, there may be a chance my banker is listening to this. If I’m saying I’m a risk-taker, he may get nervous. But if I’m saying I’m a calculated risk taker, he may be a little bit more-
Neil Dudley: You bet. Totally understand that. I was telling somebody just the other day that, I mean, bankers, there’s not one single thing wrong with bankers, but I don’t get along with them very well because I’m kind of like, hey, it’s a good idea; give me the money. And they’re like, oh no, I need a plan, and da-da-da, and that to me just seemed like wasted time. We could already be making progress. But that’s part of doing business. So, for the bankers out there, don’t change what you’re doing because that system, that part of the system is very important, too.
Frank Volleman: I don’t know, Neil, if I can slide that in and you may cut that out if it’s not appropriate, but with what we do here on our operations, we depend on these ag lenders and Central Texas Farm Credit has been a great help in developing our brand, helping us finance the land purchases that we’ve done and the construction of the plant. So, we’re very thankful for them, too.
Neil Dudley: I think we should plug them big time if they’ve helped you.
Frank Volleman: Absolutely.
Neil Dudley: Probably somebody else is looking for that help. Go check them out. They’ve done a good job for Volleman’s.
Frank Volleman: Yeah. And then the other bank that we’re working with, especially here on the dairy, on our operating side and real estate as well, is Rabobank, which is a co-op as well, the same principles as what the Farm Credit System is built on. So, we’re very grateful for the bankers. Yeah, we do pay them, but we definitely, we wouldn’t be here where we are today if it wasn’t for the support.
Neil Dudley: You bet. Got to have some financing, got to be able to leverage that debt and build something. I mean, I think successful businesses, I mean, it’d be hard for me to find – maybe there’s some people that just come from money, that the money was built prior to them – but for almost anybody else, you’re going to have to find somebody that will support you. Sometimes that’s an investor. Sometimes that’s a banker. Sometimes it maybe a venture capital group of people that believe in your idea. But either way, you need to be able to provide them a plan, some foresight, some security, all of those things. Everybody, I hope you really found some value in this conversation with Frank and hit me up with questions. Share it. Tell a friend. And please, go find Volleman’s milk somewhere, go on their website. We’ll put it in the show notes. And go out there and give it a try and see if you agree with Frank’s, what I believe, very true statement that you’re not going to find a more quality milk on the shelf than Volleman’s.
Frank Volleman: Well, Neil, thank you for these really kind words. And like I said, it was great to be on your podcast and being able to talk to you a little bit about our family, our succession, our boys, and the Volleman’s brand, that is really on the mind of our family right now. So, thank you.
Neil Dudley: You bet. Now, okay so, you can tell me to get out of here, but I just remembered there’s one more question I forgot to ask. Which this is the most fun one for me, probably not for you. What about, I think the most learning is in the failures. Can you paint something that somebody could learn from today? Like, hey man, look, we survived it, but this was a big- I learned a lot from this kind of – I don’t know, failure might be the wrong word, but just mess up or something that taught you a lot.
Frank Volleman: Yeah. The biggest challenge coming to Texas was certainly the weather and not knowing that it could be really sometimes that extreme. It could be that dry or could be that much rain all at once. And having a herd of cows when we started, open lots, not being able to house your cows properly in buildings and free stalls the way we do it now was probably one of our-
Neil Dudley: Maybe not failures, but just big challenges you didn’t foresee?
Frank Volleman: I would call it being very naive coming over here. And so being naive is a portion of being- that was definitely a failure. We didn’t do our homework correctly, and sometimes when, I mean, when you’re young, you do these kinds of things and that’s life lessons, and you need to go through these life lessons. So first of all, you’re a little bit more careful, you need to do your due diligence, your homework, when you start a project. Can you foresee everything? Absolutely not. And when you overthink it, forget about it, because then you’re going to see- and then you never do anything. And so that was probably one of my biggest failures when we started the dairy. So that has to do with management. So that was a failure on my side of not being educated good enough about the challenges that we were facing here in Texas with the weather. I think we learned out of that. We prepared, and today, we can proudly say that our animals are very well taken care of.
Neil Dudley: Now, you’re thriving in it. It just took a little bit of- I think for the listeners, use that in your life. Think, hey man, well, maybe I need to think about- I lean towards the, hey, it’s a good idea, let’s do it. And I catch myself in those kinds of scenarios a lot where, oh man, shoot, we didn’t think about all this, now this isn’t working out the same. But I gained something from that. I go on the next time. I think it helps my decision-making speed up even is some of these, oh man, that was a bad mistake. I can move past that quicker on the next thing and move on. That was great. Thanks for turning these mics back on. Everybody, check out the TEPAP as well as the Kolbe personality test, I guess you’d call it, and see if that plays in your business. And if you’re a family operation, I think that was great insight from Frank, and they’re living it, this family mediator as somebody to help you start conversations that need to be had, worked through, sensitive subjects. I mean, when you’re talking about succession and feelings are involved and I think that’s all stuff you have to be able to address and have somebody help you get along that. There’s the phone so we’re done.
Well, just listening to that again makes me really appreciate the time Frank spent to talk to me about his philosophies, what’s happened in their business, and their journey has been, it was just really insightful, and I took a lot away from it. I hope you did too. Check out the show notes. If you have any questions, we’ll have links to everything there. As always, send me questions. You can just look me up on Instagram or LinkedIn or my website and let me know what you think. I would really appreciate that direction. To the Volleman family, Frank, Annette, and all the boys, thank you so much that it was a really fun evening around the kitchen table there at Frank and Annette’s house and enjoying a couple of Dos Equis and talking about business and family business specifically, and milk, glass bottles, all those things. I learned a lot. I hope you did too. Come back next time. We’ll be talking to another interesting person that might impart some cowboy perspective on us all. God bless you.
The Cowboy Perspective is produced by Neil Dudley and Straight Up Podcasts. Graphics are done by Root & Roam Creative Studio, and the music is by Byron Hill Music.