Neil Dudley: The Cowboy Perspective, well, it might be hard to define, but I guarantee if you think about it, you’ve got one in mind. Whether you’re building a legacy, an empire, or a fan base, I bet when your friends look at you, they see some cowboy in your face. Y’all come along, let’s talk about this or that. Maybe when we’re done, you’ll go away with another perspective to put under your hat.
Alrighty. I am, man, I always want to start with the I’m excited. Shit, I’m just always excited. Now this episode really is a cool one, in my opinion. My first guest ever was a guy named Ty Murray. Well, he’s back again for this episode and we’ve got his dad to come this time. And so, you’re going to get what I think is a real special opportunity to hear some of Ty and Butch’s philosophy. There’s going to be a lot of talk about horsemanship. Matter of fact, if you haven’t caught Ty’s, it’s not an episode, but it’s a Facebook post of a video where he’s starting his first day with a young Clydesdale filly that he came across. And I think you’ll really enjoy that. So, if you haven’t checked it out, go to Facebook, look up Ty Murray and watch his first day or first two days in the round pen with Rosie, the Clydesdale. If you’re listening, I appreciate you being here. I know your time’s not free. If you like it, give me a like, if you like the concept, the ideas that we’re promoting here at the Cowboy Perspective, subscribe to my podcast, tell one friend. Word of mouth does wonders. And of course, I’m doing this to bring value and do something that is a value to people. So, if it’s not valuable to you, I’d love to hear that as well. Thanks so much for listening. And here is my good [inaudible] and his dad, one of the most loving guys I’ve ever met, Butch Murray. I look forward to sharing it with you guys. Let’s do it.
Well, here we go, another episode of the Cowboy Perspective, sitting here talking to a couple of guys that I count as friends and mentors and real special people to me in my life. And as a part of this Cowboy Perspective or series about cowboy mentors, I just had to get them to sit down and talk to me a little bit about, well, a lot of things, and I don’t know exactly where the conversation is going to go, but I think it’ll be valuable to anybody that wants to listen and cares about a high-performing person, want to be high-performing athlete, human being, a businessman, cowboy, all those things. I think you’re going to learn a lot of things if you listen to what these guys have to say and what they think about life and cowboying, and just a perspective on how to compete and how to love. Butch, you’re kind of the guy I’d like to start with. Why don’t you tell everybody just a little bit about who you are and where you came from, so they can understand a little bit before we get to diving into Ty and some of the stuff he’s done. And I think it’s pretty cool or it’s important to get to know you a little bit. I would say, I thought about this as I was coming over, I’ve never been around you one time where I didn’t feel love, you’re that kind of person. Where does that come from? Or just tell us maybe a little bit, where are you from?
Butch Murray: Well, my name is Butch Murray, and I was raised in Oklahoma on the 101 Ranch. And all my uncles and my grandpa worked for the 101 and they all cowboyed. And I started at a real young age riding horses and learning from them.
Neil Dudley: What was your relationship with your dad or when you look at what made you want to be a cowboy or even have an idea of what a cowboy was?
Butch Murray: Well, my young years, I was raised by my grandma and grandpa. Like I said, we had a horse operation and we had studs, mares, and then racehorses, and we broke them, trained them, run them. We’d done it all. And that’s how I got started in the horse business.
Neil Dudley: I don’t even know if I’ve ever asked you, have you got any brothers or sisters?
Butch Murray: I got one sister.
Neil Dudley: Was she into that kind of stuff?
Butch Murray: No.
Neil Dudley: She didn’t take to it?
Butch Murray: No.
Neil Dudley: I talked to Ty quite a bit or I just remember when I’d come ride with y’all, which just for reference everybody, I didn’t know Ty or Butch until I was probably in my mid-twenties or late twenties and I got to coming over here and riding with them a bunch, just out of a kind of crazy circumstance. A friend of mine had done some driving for Ty. Well might as well mention him, Kirky Roberts. He’s a pretty good fella too. So that’s where I kind of started my education. I had a lot to learn. I still have a lot to learn. I kind of think about, or I’m curious, Ty, how was your relationship with your dad as a kid? And did you feel, or did you, was he just this same way your whole growing up as just like, man, I never really seen Butch sideways about anything. He’s just kind of an even keeled, loving guy.
Ty Murray: Yeah. And I feel very lucky. Me and Dad have always been real close and I feel like most of the things that I’ve learned about cowboying, or in my earlier years, the toughness that I had to have and the confidence that I had to have, and the way if you’re going to ride bareback saddle broncing bulls for a living, it takes a certain kind of mindset. And I know that I got that from my dad, and it was from everything, from junior rodeos to learn how to rope calves, to team roping with him – we were team roping partners when I was a little kid. That’s how the junior rodeos worked. And my dad broke racehorse colts for a living. So ever since I was, as long as I can remember, he was in the breaking pen, and I was watching him ride colts. And so, it’s something that I was born into and have been around my whole life. And I feel very fortunate to have him for dad and all the things that he’s shared with me. And to tell you the truth, he’s very humble and very open. And he’s a guy that made a living all through his teens and twenties and thirties and forties riding colts, kind of just cowboying through it. And he was tough enough that, he was the type of guy that they would send the bad horses to. When I was 20, I read a book that Tom Dorrance wrote, and I knew there was a better way with horses than making them do everything. And I started going down that path and trying to educate myself and learn about it. And I talked to Dad about it, and what I’m more proud of than the kind of cowboy my dad is that he is that he looked at that and went I do believe that’s better. I do believe that’s a better deal for the horse than what I’ve been doing for the last 40 years. And that takes a humble man to do that. And that’s why he’s 79 and still getting better.
Neil Dudley: You bet. Well, and he’ll drill that into me. I mean, that’s something I carry with me every day in whatever I do. I’m not horseback as much as I was in times when we spent together, but it still plays in my life in whatever I’m doing, even raising my family. I see how Butch was with his family and I, well, you touched on something I thought was really cool – I hope I’m this way or I’m able to – but that humble nature, Butch, like you display and like, hey, there might be a better way. Yeah, let’s think about it. Or to, I think, as a human or me, even if I’m real flat honest, I want to think I’m good. I want to be good. I want to be better than the other guy. And I wondered if it ever, how was the dynamic or was it ever a thought in your mind when Ty was having all that success, was that the same as your success?
Butch Murray: Sure.
Neil Dudley: So, you just never wished it away from him anyway? See, I’m afraid some people do because they think it takes away from who they might be or, uh oh, now I’m getting overshadowed by somebody else. That I really appreciate and like seeing that. Or I like that I got to see it and understand it that way. I think with my girls, if they were really successful, I don’t think I would want to wish it away from them.
Butch Murray: No, no way.
Neil Dudley: But for everybody listening, the way it kind of worked was I started coming over here a little bit. And then next thing you know, we’re kind of riding horses together, and Butch and Ty started trying to teach me a little bit about what horsemanship was. And then one day we managed to – I really don’t know how this happened, I think Ty just talked them into letting me onto this thing called the Cowboy Extreme Race or it might’ve even been Butch and I was excited. And as an immature kid, I was thinking, man, this is cool. I’m fixing to get famous. Man, I’m going to be famous, I’m going to win this thing, everybody’s going to love me, and here we go. And that was just kind of an immature thing in my life. So anyways, we go over here and do it. We’re doing it, and we’re kind of signing up. I don’t know if y’all remember this, but I remember it real vividly, and I want to kind of make an apology for it, which we might have mentioned this on the last podcast, I can’t remember. I already did one. If you haven’t listened to episode one, that’s the first one I ever did and Ty was on there. And anyways, they were saying, okay, well, who was, like who were your mentors? Who kind of taught you about horsemanship and stuff? And the pride in me, I mean Ty was standing right there, Butch is just right over there. And I could easily just say, well, here they are, these two guys right here and my dad. I started naming people like Ed Workman. And for whatever reason, I didn’t want to just admit it, these guys right here taught me all this stuff. So, I’ve always kind of been like that was a good lesson. I need to learn from that. You need to back up a little bit and say, okay, these people are actually spending some time helping you and treating you really nice. And don’t try to just take it all for yourself and say actually, I’m a great horseman. I’m not. I’m just a product of you guys training on me a little bit.
Butch Murray: We all are.
Neil Dudley: Yeah. Do you remember me loping a whole circle in the wrong-? I mean, I was kind of kicking butt in that competition up until that point. I think I was, because we’d worked on that horse out here. I still think and remember, I really enjoyed that time.
Ty Murray: We’ve had a lot of- me and you’ve worked a lot of cattle together over the past 20 years. And I’ve always said, I’d take Neil anywhere. And you and Cody Lane both are guys that are as good as you’d want. We know that when us three go to do something that we’re going to get it done, no matter what it is.
Neil Dudley: And it won’t have to be a wreck. It’s like sometimes you might go with some guys and oh, well, we’ll probably get it done, but we’re going to come out of there with a broke arm and the cattle are going to be pretty stirred up. Alright so, I want to explore, I think it’s valuable to the listeners, this dynamic you guys have. Like when you’re training somebody, like it’s almost like y’all just hand them off just seamlessly. I’ll be sitting there talking to Butch about something with the horses and then I’ll ride over next to Ty and he’s saying the same thing. So where did that come from? Is that just from years of being father-son?
Butch Murray: Riding together and we would learn something, we’d talk about it. If Ty had something and it worked the best, that’s what we would do or vice versa. But being able to talk about what you’re doing and understanding it is so important. Tom Dorrance and Bill Dorrance said, they would say whatever you’re doing with the horse, do the opposite and you’ll be close. Of course, both our horses and we ride them with no bridals, and it’s a new technique.
Neil Dudley: What do you say to those people? I know they’re out there that say, well, they’re just trying to show off. They just want to ride them bridle-less so they can say they can do it.
Butch Murray: We just made a better deal for the horse. We don’t have a piece of iron in their mouth and we’re not on their face all the time. We don’t use tie-downs.
Ty Murray: Showing off is the last thing that I’m trying to do. And when you don’t have a bridal, you have to ride. You’ve got to give your horse a steady stream of information and 90 some odd percent of the people, if you say, well, what do you do when you want your horse to stop? Well I pull back. Okay. What do you do when you want him to back up? I pull back. Okay. Well, what do you do when you want him to slow down? I pull back. Well, what do you do when you want him to wait? I’ll pull back. What do you do when a cows about to get behind you? You pull back. I mean, it’s like take that away and you’ve got to figure out a different line of communication that the horse understands. And for me, my mentor Dennis Reese took me and took the bridle off and gave me a stick in each hand and he said, “Now go ride.” Well, you learn pretty quick how much you rely on pulling on your reins. You realize how little of information you’re giving your horse. And so, to me, I still like to ride bridle-less because every day that I do it, it makes me ride better and I can operate every part of my horse through a subtle, steady stream of information that he’s not guessing wrong. He’s not filling in the blanks wrong. He knows what I want, and he’s able to willingly give it to me the way that he naturally has known how to do since he was a day old. We’re not asking them to do back flips. Everything we’re asking them to do they’ve known how to do their whole life.
Neil Dudley: Well, that’s good. I think it’s good insight. And it’s a good thing to think about. It’s not about anybody else really. It’s about what level do you want to be at?
Ty Murray: There’s not too many people that see us out here. We’re not doing it to show off. Ain’t nobody out here.
Neil Dudley: Sure. A hundred percent.
Butch Murray: But I do believe that when that bridal comes off, the truth begins.
Neil Dudley: Yeah. I guarantee you right now, if you told me to do it, I’d be nervous. And I mean, I’ve done- I had that one horse I used in the Cowboy Extreme Race. I could ride him bridle-less. He had the trust in me that was necessary. And we had that communication. So, I’ve experienced it, but I think you got to, it’s like Ty was just saying, I want to be better, but I’ve not been getting better for a while.
Butch Murray: You remember his name. And you remember why we named it?
Neil Dudley: Yeah. You know, and that’s what- that one day is something I’ll never forget. Prior to then, it would have been whoops, bank, make him jump off into the water and hey, we did it. Now we’re going to have to do that same thing next time we come to the water.
Ty Murray: Or worse. Cause next time he goes I thought it was scary and he proved me right.
Neil Dudley: That’s right. Well, and I learned that day was with a small amount of patience, five minutes in my life, I built trust a trust and a relationship with that horse. Well, and even y’all, I mean, that was five minutes that I value of our time together. And we hadn’t even mentioned Joy, but she’s about the same thing. I mean, Joy, I can teach you a lot about riding.
Ty Murray: She’s who we learned from.
Neil Dudley: If you don’t know who Joy is, that’s Butch’s wife and Ty’s mom, and she’s a cowgirl mentor of mine. We just don’t happen to have her in here telling us about it. And this horsemanship thing, I’ve said this to people – I wonder what you guys think – if you want to be a better human, be a better horseman. Have y’all found in your life that the horsemen, the things you’ve learned to be a better horseman actually help in a million other ways?
Ty Murray: Yeah. You can raise your kids by it. You know, ask, suggest, and promise.
Butch Murray: We’re making the behavior that they might think they need to do a little more difficult and the behavior that’s going to be better for them easy. And so, I really think it relates to horsemanship. Because I think a lot of times parents are making the right thing hard for the kid and the wrong thing easy for the kid. And that’s really what everybody, most people do with horses. And I know the kids, I know that horsemanship will open your eyes to kids, and kids will open your eyes to horsemanship. I think they absolutely go hand in hand. Having good feel, providing them information, taking out the guesswork for them, being a good example, being a good leader.
Neil Dudley: Yeah, that’s leadership. Like that’s what a horse wants, a leader that they can believe in and trust.
Ty Murray: It might be 51% the human and 49% the horse, but you got to be in partners with your horse.
Neil Dudley: I think that works with kids that are looking for leadership, they don’t just want to be bad. They just want somebody to love on them and to show them and guide them, give them some rules to go by.
Ty Murray: They like to know the parameters. Absolutely.
Neil Dudley: Of course, they got to test them, but you just have to get the parameter there consistent. And that’s the, I have trouble with that. It’s like consistency – that consistency is a thing I struggle with in all kinds of pieces of my life. And I think that’s probably something you guys kind of do really well, not just easily, but you’ve learned how to do it. I bet, I would venture to say in Ty’s rodeo career, he was just consistently bam. I mean, just he had this thing where he consistently stayed with it, kept his mindset right.
Ty Murray: I think things that have always helped- I think me and my dad are a lot alike in the way that the way we do things is having an understanding of it. And so, I feel that way in any aspect of my life. I feel like I have to understand it before I can do it and do it right. And if you’re just doing something because you’re doing it the way that Joe did it, that’s not enough information for me. I need to know why Joe did it that way. And then I decide if I think that makes sense or not. And when I know the why, then I can remember the what. And it was that way with riding with me. It’s that way with every aspect of my life. I don’t just bail into it and just go for it blindly or emulate somebody. And when I say emulate, if I’m emulating them, it’s because I understand what they’re doing or what they’re trying to do or what they’re going for or at least what their philosophy is. And when I’m able to understand that and that philosophy makes sense to me, too, then that’s how I remember it. That’s how I know how to do it. That’s how I- and I think both of our brains work that way and I think that’s been something that has been helpful to me in some ways. You can also be too much of a perfectionist, that can be hard as well. And I think my dad and I are both perfectionists. But it’s everyone could have a like an Achilles heel, like your strongest thing is also your- so it’s a balance. I’m not saying, hey, look at me. I’m just saying that if you’re asking me things that I think have helped me, whether it be with horses or my rodeo career or any other thing, I think that seeking the knowledge and having an understanding of it and then taking things and go, do I agree with that? Does that make sense? Does it work? And that’s where, like Dad brings up the good point. What I have found that works the best with horses is doing it the opposite way of everything you’ve ever been shown, really, because great horsemanship is not out there with- it’s not out there with everybody. 98% of the people, it’s pull on them to stop, kick them to go, and shove it down their throat and they’ll get used to it. And where it can get confusing is, like you talking about wanting the first time you tried to ride River across the river. River would cross the river when he’s a day old. The river wasn’t the problem. When you first come into the equation, that’s where they go, wait a minute, this is scary. And so being able to make the river the easy part, he knows how to cross the river. And when you figured out that going right was a little more difficult, going left was more difficult for him. Backing up was more difficult for him. And when he breathed towards that river, everything got easy. It don’t take them long to go, well, that’s a fair deal. And so that’s the opposite of how you were raised. That’s the opposite of how I was raised and that’s the opposite of how he was raised. Blow him off in there, kick him in the belly, whip him on the butt. Let’s go! Who’s in charge? So that’s been handed down now for generation after generation after generation after generation. And people just think that’s normal. My favorite thing that Tom Dorrance ever said is he said, I want to be the horse’s lawyer. And that’s just one of the coolest things, because nobody needs a lawyer like a horse. I mean, everything gets blamed on them. Ah, my horse don’t like to cross water. Oh, my horse, he don’t like, he must have tics in his ears. He don’t like you to pick his feet up. He don’t like to be tied. He’s barn set, he really misses his buddies. Whatever the bad behavior is, it’s all, it always just kind of gets put off on the horse. And I promise I can trace it right back to you.
Neil Dudley: Yup.
Quick pause just to say I hope you know who Peterson Natural Farms is. If you don’t, go check them out, www.petersonsfarms.com. If you have any questions, hit me up. I’ve been working with Peterson’s and my best friend since kindergarten and his wife and my wife and a whole bunch of other really great people for about 20 years now, building a brand and a bunch of products that we think really add value to people’s healthy lifestyles. And I like to say the Cowboy Perspective podcast is a labor of love that I kind of do in my spare time. And I hope to just bring value, tell stories about people that affect me and give me the perspective I have. And I don’t want to steal that labor of love line from Mr. Douglas Burdett, the host of the Marketing Book Podcast without giving him some credit. There’s another something I’d tell you. If you are into building a brand or an entrepreneur of any sort, salesperson of any sort, go listen to the Marketing Book Podcast. He reviews great authors’ books about sales and marketing. So, Peterson Natural Farms, go check them out. Thank you for listening to the Cowboy Perspective.
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I’m curious what you guys would think is a fair expectation for somebody to say, if they’re right now today listening to this and think that all makes a lot of sense to me, I kind of realize I’m not where I want to be, what’s a fair amount of time a guy should expect or a girl should expect to kind of-? I know it took me well-
Butch Murray: We’re still learning.
Neil Dudley: Yeah, that’s right. You guys were, or what kind of what I would call y’all are just in the masterclass now, though. You’re fine tuning in just very almost unnoticeable ways to most anybody. What do you know, kind of to just get to that first tier of well hey now my horse doesn’t hate me, I mean, we’re making a partnership, got any pulse on what-? It could be different a little bit for everybody, I’m sure.
Ty Murray: I can say it’s the hardest thing I’ve ever learned. And I feel like I’m still learning, and it’s hard to say how long it takes, because as you go, it keeps changing. So, it might start out that you wish you could catch your horse if he was in 500 acres. And I remember when that was really cool to me, when I was like, damn, you mean I ain’t got to chase them down and trick them and trap them and trick them with grain or do something, but they’ll actually hunt me up and come to me. But as you go along, you just keep seeing what’s possible. And you just keep seeing that this horse will give you his guts. And when you start learning how to let them give it to you. And so, it’s hard to say because I still feel like I’m, when I started out, I was in a class with 20 women that were 65 to 70 years old that had some money, and they had a horse that they loved, and Fluffy was running over them and bucking them off and flipping over backwards. And they was loving them to death. And so, those women are the only ones that aren’t too macho to say, hey, I need some help here. And I could cowboy it. I could, if they bucked, I could ride them. It didn’t get too Western that I couldn’t handle it. But it’s like, man, there’s got to be a better deal. There’s got to be a better deal than my horse dreading me and hating me, and everything feels like he can’t wait to get away from, he can’t wait to leave me. And I would see glimpses of people like Tom Dorrance, like Ray Hunt. Like Dennis Reis, Pat Perelli. I mean, you could go on, there’s a list of guys now that can give you the right information and have learned how to teach it. Even the cowboys that you might get around that that are a good hand, they don’t tell you how to do it, or they don’t even talk about.
Neil Dudley: Buster Welch was the guy kind of coming to my mind, he’s had a lot of success in the cutting arena and there’s another guy just did a podcast with, his name’s Billy Albin. And they’re great horsemen, but they don’t necessarily want to share or have the skill set to share, which is I think special about you guys, because you want to share it and you can. I mean, you can put it in a way that makes sense or somebody can pick up and use.
Ty Murray: I just liked seeing, beyond me wanting a better deal with my horse and a happier horse and a horse that operates better and is lower anxiety and is happy and willing and giving me subtly what I want because I’m subtly asking for it. Beyond that, I truly want to see things get better for the horse. I’m telling you, the horse gets a raw deal at every turn.
Neil Dudley: Well, why do you like horses?
Butch Murray: They’re a super special animal. They’re big enough to kill you, but they’re an herbivore, they’re a herd animal that that doesn’t want to fight, but they’ve been treated like a tiger for thousands of years.
Neil Dudley: Do you think you could take one of them bucking horses that you used to ride and score 90 points on-
Butch Murray: I was going to bring that up.
Neil Dudley: Tell me about it a little bit.
Butch Murray: Well, there was a stock contractor that was, I guess, you’d call it making fun about the horse and horsemanship that we do. And Ty told him, give me your worst bronc, your worst one. And give me 90 days and I’ll have you a nice saddle horse. He wouldn’t do it.
Neil Dudley: Oh, he wouldn’t? Oh man.
Ty Murray: You know what, they don’t, here’s the thing, a lot of people think-
Neil Dudley: You reckon that horse would still buck if they put him in the shoot after all that?
Ty Murray: I think so. That’s the relationship of that. And then that’s the relationship- him and I’s relationship doesn’t mean that-
Neil Dudley: What he does next didn’t go back to work-
Ty Murray: Horses live in the now. They remember the past, but they live in the now. And as soon as they get a better deal presented to them, they take it. I’ve never seen it not work, and I’ve never seen it- like this colt we’re helping this kid with right now, I mean, he takes him in there and sneaks a saddle on him and slips it in and hocks it in him and stands back and watches the bomb go off. And this horse bucked and bucked and bucked and then reared and bucked and bucked and bucked. He said it took him two hours to get his saddle off. And he brought me the horse the next day, and just as soon as we gave him a better deal, he took it, and we saddled him, sinched him, and he put his head on the ground and he was just happy and understanding, never turned a wet hair. And I’m not saying that to say look at us. I’m saying that as soon as that horse got a better deal, he was, he beat us there. He was just standing there waiting and saying, man, this is a lot better deal.
Butch Murray: The instant you gave River a better deal, he took it.
Neil Dudley: I’m just here to testify that what y’all are saying is true. I felt that, I’ve been there, and the concept works on people, cattle, dogs, kids.
Butch Murray: We broke two donkeys with horsemanship.
Neil Dudley: I was just- We got some we got a little lease country over there and we get put some cattle on it and bought them off the King Ranch there, and they were wild. I mean, they come running off that trailer at 90 miles an hour. Anyways, so they need to be trained. We go out there and train them and this Billy- Are either one of y’all familiar with Billy Albin? Heard of him, or-?
Ty Murray: I’ve heard that name.
Neil Dudley: He was on a rodeo team at Tarleton that won the world college championship. Anyways. Really cool guy. He does rawhide braiding. He’s really a world-class rawhide braider. That’s another thing. There’s so many things that come to my mind while I’m talking with you guys. But y’all are both even kind of artists. I mean, I’m just looking at these placemats on the table. I know the leather work that Butch does, and you’re not just doing it because you want to say you can do leather work. You want to put out really nice leather work, really good quality stuff. And you do do that. I almost, I don’t know if I’ve seen Ty doing so much leather work or it just turns his clock in the same way. Maybe it does. You can correct me if I’m wrong. But there’s a little bit of that artistic I think nature in both of you with that real analytical piece and then wanting to make it the best it can be. Anyways, when we were training on these cattle, he was talking to me and he said something like, “People get these cattle gathered up and they say, let’s make them go in pen now.” And he says, “I like to think about it like let’s let them go in the pen.”
Ty Murray: Exactly. And that’s the analogy that I use all the time. If somebody’s got to go gather a cow, the closer they get to that gate- first they’re right up their butt the whole way anyway. So, it doesn’t do any good for her to walk the way you’re wanting her to walk because you’re just right on her, she’s never getting a release. And if she looks at that gate, I just stop. She goes along. She goes off over there, I bring up a little anxiety and start trotting that way. And she looks back even towards that gate, I just stop. And I can’t tell you how many cows or bulls or things that I’ve went and got or gathered or whatever that I’m putting them in the corral and I’m 400 yards away from them. That’s where you say yes, go that way, it’s easy this way. This way, not so easy. That way, not so easy. This way, not so easy. But you breathe towards that gate and you can do that for free and you can’t keep them out. And the way I was raised where you just get on them and you heard them and you get right on their butt and you shove them through that gate, they’ll go anywhere but the gate. I mean, you’ve seen that and that’s the essence to me, that’s a small example of the essence of horsemanship.
Butch Murray: Yep. Give them the best deal.
Neil Dudley: And forgive them. Okay, let’s say if you’re a horse or a cow or whatever and you’re a prey animal, you’re going to have some fear about things. So forgive them for having that. That’s just natural. But they walk up to them pens that gate, whatever, there’s people stomping around, vehicles parked around. They don’t know what that is. They need a pause for a minute and say, okay, well back here are these guys and they’re going to put pressure on me when I go away from this other thing that looks scary to me. It’s just right when it gets tight is when you don’t want to go jamming on them.
Butch Murray: Exactly.
Ty Murray: You don’t want to go jamming on them and you don’t want to, like that’s the perfect example. It’s human nature. Like when that cow looks at that gate, to go, man, I about got her. If I can just shove her in there now. Cause I bout got her. And when you do that with a horse, that’s when the bomb goes off.
Neil Dudley: I can say in business, I’ve missed deals for having that attitude – oh man, he’s about to sign that contract. I see it, man, that’s good, here it is. And no, I’m not- why are you acting like that all of a sudden? We’ve been just getting along up until now. Now you’re in a big hurry for me to do this? I think we’ll wait another. And I think it works good in lots of things. And that’s part of what the podcast is all about is some of these cowboy concepts, these horsemanship concepts, I think or I know are valuable to me every day of my life in everything I do. I hope I can share some of them through you guys and the guests that I have so other people can take them up. I think Ty’s a great example or what he said is a great thing to think about. He watches everybody, listens to everybody, then he says, I’m going to run that through my internal filter of what I believe and think and see if I’m going to buy it or not. And then if I buy it, well, okay, I’m going to start trying it a little bit. And that was cool. And that was stuff I learned from being around you guys and riding.
Ty Murray: I think that you know, I think that the thing that you see in the horse world is all of it’s hard. Especially like competing, it’s all hard. So, but what I see a lot of is people, say take anything, if it’s, I don’t care if it’s barrel racing and they want to barrel race and they want to win and they want to go fast. And it becomes more about making a trick monkey. So, you show them those barrel patterns 8 million times. And I’m not picking on barrel racers here. I see it in every discipline there is. And it becomes more about trying to get the results of quickness or whatever it is, and it’s through drills of we’re going to go and do this, and we’re going to get faster and then we’re going to get faster and then we’re going to get faster and then we’re going to get faster, and you’re making this monkey trick happen. And different horses have different temperament for that. Some horses can take it better than other horses. But when you can give a horse an understanding of what you want, where you can give them a steady stream of information that takes all the guesswork out of it, that’s when you see the, like when I see, say a lot of, say barrel horses, just since we’re using that example, they all have so much cortisol and anxiety and fear that even though you’ve done that monkey trick great a thousand times at home, now you get to the barrel race, you’re more amped up, you know you got to blast it now. And that horse’s cortisol’s way up here, his anxiety. And now he’s got to try to remember all this guesswork of the monkey trick. And that’s why, oh, well I hit that barrel. Oh, well, I blew that barrel or whatever it is. All that stuff. Well, the horse guessed wrong. And you’re asking him to fill in a lot of blanks. Where I’m at, I don’t want my horse to feel in blanks. I want him, I want to be able, I want to get to where I can ride so good that through my seat and leg and energy and thoughts, that horse can follow that feel and have a steady, constant, subtle stream of information that his anxiety doesn’t come up. Now he’s that herd animal that’s just following my subtle lead and that stuff goes away, and I’m not here to say, hey, these people aren’t good. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m just saying what I see. And so to me, I want my horse to be able to do anything. So, I can’t teach him everything in the world through a monkey trick. I’ve got to be able to have a steady stream of subtle communication that he can follow. And then I can do anything that I want to do.
Neil Dudley: I love it because I’ve been around y’all enough, I know I could say about anything, like a minute ago, I was going to ask about this bronc, bucking horse you scored 90 on, let’s make him a saddle horse. I knew Butch would just look at me like, sure, we’ll do that. It’s like, you just have no doubt in it. I find myself doubting. I’m scared my skill level’s not there. Well, it’s true, it’s not. I know my skill level is not there, so I don’t have the confidence in something. Just like we had a cow we had to go doctor, and this is all happening to me today. And I thought, well, let’s put about 10 cows in there with her and get them other cows with her and take her to the pen. And then I brought Dad and Billy, he was there with us, and we’re riding out there and he’s just kind of trying to let me run the show, and I’m not capable of it yet. And we kind of start going there and I’m like, well, let’s find those other cattles – other cattles. I don’t know, cattles is not a word. But let’s find them other cattle and put them with this one. She’s kind of wild, keep her from running off. And he just kind of said, “Well, I always like just going after one.” So, what? “Well, I just, I don’t know why we need to get any of those other ones. Let’s just get that one because the mothers are problems and they’re more problems than helping us and probably she’s hurting. She’s going to want help anyway.” Sure enough, we get over there and we’re kind of looking at her. Oh, she’s over there under that tree. I said, “Well, let me go over and mess with her a little bit.” And he did just what you’re talking about. Second she did the thing he wanted, she gets all release. Second she’s trying to go the wrong thing, put some pressure on her. Next thing you know, she’s over there in the pen. Me and dad were just riding along, talking about what we’re going to do later. We weren’t needed out there. And he said something to me that has stuck with me. He said, “If you really want to be a good cowboy, you need to go do a lot of stuff by yourself without a bunch of other people there to help you.” And I think that’s pretty true. You learn a lot when you have to just go do it by yourself and there’s nobody to block that hole over there. You need them to just be cooperating with you. So, let’s talk a little bit about what did you think about my artist comment a minute ago? Do you believe what I said there? Do you think that- is that part of what you really like?
Butch Murray: You mean the braiding and the leather work?
Neil Dudley: Yeah. That kind of stuff. Is it time passing or is it just something you’re always challenging yourself with?
Butch Murray: When Ty was a little guy, I went to making all his equipment. And of course, we wanted him to have the best from braiding these bull ropes, hack rings. And then, it’s just been something that I’ve done for 60 years.
Neil Dudley: Oh, yeah, see that’s a weird thing. I pictured it more as something you’ve picked up recently, but you’ve been doing it forever ever. So, you made, did you make his bull ropes his whole career?
Butch Murray: Nope. Once he won the world, he got endorsements. And he started using other guys.
Neil Dudley: Well, that’s kind of a cool piece of that history I never heard or knew. That’s pretty special. You still got any of them bull ropes he made?
Ty Murray: Yeah. I still got that stuff and I think Dad enjoys making good gear. I think that it’s relaxing to him. I think that it’s an art form that he enjoys doing and getting better at. And he’s, I feel like our stuff, like we’ve used enough stuff that we know what the best is, and he makes us the best stuff. And just down to little things like a lead rope, there’s lead ropes that are really good and there’s ones I can’t stand. And it’s they’re too stiff or they burn your hands super easy or whatever it is. And ours don’t burn you and they stay supple and they’re strong and so it’s a lot, it’s just a lot of things like that.
Neil Dudley: I think it’s cool that they’re handmade by somebody you care about. I’ve got a tie rope Butch made and it’s special to me, and it’s a damn good one. And it’s special to me also. I got several things that I’ve just picked up over the years. I think that’s something kind of cowboys do to that I’ve been real lucky to be around is we’re riding and I’m wearing some chaps and I don’t really have a little knife holster, and Ty’s got one. I’m kind of like, that’s cool, where’d you get that? And the next time I come out, Butch just hands me one, says hey, here’s one of them knife holders. It’s like just that’s what I think I mean by that. Like you can’t even, it’s just love. It’s just like, man, this guy just really cares about me. And Ty has it as much as anybody I think, but I don’t know, I don’t know why it doesn’t seem necessarily as, maybe you’re just more- You just might not be quite as affectionate, like Butch is really affectionate kind and you’re not quite as much, but I think both of you are real care about others and want them to have a better deal.
Ty Murray: Maybe it’s because we’re closer to the same age and I didn’t want you to get the wrong idea.
Neil Dudley: Don’t worry. I wouldn’t. I remember first time I ever met you, we were up at the pub. I was debating with myself if I’d even bring this up, but it’s kind of a cool story. We don’t have to leave it in here if we don’t want to. But and I remember, I don’t know who it was, but come in there with Kirk and you were there. And I was like, oh, damn, there’s Ty Murray, like shit, man, everybody knows who he is. Anyways. There’s some other guys there and you said something like I’ll bet you a hundred dollars- I’ll bet you a hundred dollars I can put you on your back in about three seconds. Kirk and I think there was another guy or maybe you did it to Kirk first, and then a couple other guys were like, hey, well, I’ll take that bet. And bam, he just popped them on their back three seconds, whatever it was. I mean, no problem. And I was watching it and I was like, I thought why is nobody trying to put him on his back? It’s like, they’re just kinda trying to block him and that’s his advantage. They should try to flip that coin, and okay, cool. But instead of just keeping him from putting you on your back, why don’t you try to do it to him? And then you might actually not let him do it. But that’s, I remember that really well. It was kind of the first time-
Ty Murray: And then you and I had a wrestling match and we about broke each other’s necks.
Neil Dudley: I think my only, the only thing that saved me in that wrestling match is I’m taller than you. Otherwise, I’d have been in big trouble. Man, fellas, it’s been a lot of fun. I think there’s a lot of good information in there. I appreciate your time. And thanks for being on the podcast.
Butch Murray: Thank you, Neil.
Neil Dudley: Well, we found the end of the tape reel here for this episode. I just want to say thanks for listening. Also like to say, thanks to Ty and Paige and Butch and Joy, the Murray family for having us over. We did the podcast around Ty and Paige’s kitchen table. Then we went swimming in their pool. So, it was a good time. I hope you guys and gals that listened found some value in there, got a chance to take a little bit of insight from some people that I think are really good, salt of the earth kind of people that have spent their lives trying to be good at what they want to be good at. That’s what the Cowboy Perspective is all about. If you enjoyed it, give me a like or tell a friend or share it on your social media. Don’t forget, check out Ty’s Facebook page, some of the stuff he’s got going with Rosie, the Clydesdale, that’s a lot of kind of visual insights into his horsemanship philosophies and skillset. Thanks for listening. And until next time, God bless you.
The Cowboy Perspective is produced by Neil Dudley and Straight Up Podcasts. Graphics are done by Root and Roam Creative Studio and the music is by Byron Hill Music.